Talk:A Guide to Ski Touring in the Lower Coast Range

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Hmm, I wonder if Baldwin would have any issues in regards to copyrights of his book? Baldwin is currently making an updated version. Champagne 14:20, 25 January 2008 (PST)

Does this thing have anything to do with Baldwin? Also, we'd need to check the rules regarding republication of the NTS maps. You can download them for free, but maybe not include them in your book or website. Scott Webster 14:28, 25 January 2008 (PST)

Great idea! I have a few comments before this project really gets going:

  • Perhaps we can integrate this somehow with the information from the skiing trips page. Some of the articles listed there on that page are pretty good. Others need work. How do we integrate pages that may contain skiing, hiking and climbing information about the same place?
  • I like the table of ciritical information for each trip. To make things consistent across pages, this info could be rolled into a template like we have done for the hut pages
  • For huts, should we include the skiing info on the hut page or separately. The Brew Hut and Brian Waddington Hut pages already have some info about ski runs, access, etc.
  • For wiki organization, it might be best for all the ski guide pages to use a common namespace or a common prefix. For example "ski guide/Rainbow Mountain" instead of just "Rainbow Mountain".

Scott Nelson 09:39, 28 January 2008 (PST)

  • luckily, for the 30 destinations I have listed, only 2 or 3 overlap with existing pages (Brew and Diamond head). Pages for places like Rainbow exist but tend to be very bare bones so I will basically replace them. There should be ~25 pages that are new to the VOC wiki.
  • Baldwin has nothing to do with this book. This publication was written by Bruce Blackwell, Alan Dibb, Jay Page and Paul Phillips. These 4 people might have a problem with this, but I highly doubt it as none of their names are written on the copy write inside the front cover (just the VOC).
  • It would be best to have a template similar to the huts. I figured I would let someone else format the data.
  • It would be a great idea to link huts to trips
  • Someone who knows something will have to update the data for hiking and skiing. I think it might be best to have separate pages for winter and summer as the routes and hazards seldom stay the same between seasons.
  • Don't know about the copy write on the images, I assumed the original authors would have looked after that. We also have other topographic maps on the wiki.
  • The format of the guide is important. The "how to use this guide" is now included with all pages (or soon will be). The pages could go anywhere, but I like how they are now associated with a quick reference map. Maybe integrate links into the main wiki and leave a page with the map?

--Hairycow 21:39, 28 January 2008 (PST)

I created a standardized sidebar that can be included to unify all the pages and link them back to the main ski guide page. Wikipedia often uses similar sidebar templates for related articles. See Omer lakes for an example. I have not added it to any of the other pages yet. Do you like it? Also, Garibaldi Neve Traverse and Spearhead Traverse are now duplicates. Scott Nelson


I'll try to make a google interactive box with the trail locations later. Similar to the one for the History of VOC huts. Champagne 11:22, 29 January 2008 (PST)

Map looks good, but can anyone see why Brew Hut appears as Mt Brew Cabin? What's appearing on the page doesn't seem to match the wiki code. --Matthew 13:06, 22 February 2008 (PST)
Never mind, I didn't notice it was an included template. --Matthew 13:14, 22 February 2008 (PST)

Introductory pages

Most of the pages in the guide stand alone as VOC wiki articles, but it seems the first two pages - Preface and Ski Touring in the Southern B.C. Coast Ranges - don't. Maybe they should be moved to, e.g., A Guide to Ski Touring in the Lower Coast Range/Preface. I'm not sure what the best way to organise a book like this on the wiki is, but a stand-alone page called Preface doesn't seem to work in the greater context of the wiki. --Matthew 11:33, 30 January 2008 (PST)

=>I am copying the guide as it was first created. However, the intro and preface are just so that everyone who is working on the project start on the same page. They will soon be deleted/lost as they have no relevance if the articles move into the man part of the wiki (which I hope will happen). The format will change as VOCers see fit. --Hairycow 20:09, 30 January 2008 (PST)

Also, Sphinx Hut overlaps with the existing page for the Burton Hut --Matthew 11:37, 30 January 2008 (PST)

=> very little of the data overlaps, Sphinx hut which should read Sphinx Bay is how to get there, Burton Hut is mostly about the hut and says very little of the route. The two pages actually compliment each other very well. I think a link to Burton Hut in the Sphinx Bay (still needs to be renamed) page is a good way of doing things. --Hairycow 20:06, 30 January 2008 (PST)

Also, Introduction, INTRODUCTION, Using This Ski Guide, USING THIS SKI GUIDE, Overview Map, Map Symbols. Scott Webster 12:08, 30 January 2008 (PST)
I removed some of the offending pages. FYI not everyone has the ability to delete a wiki page, however anyone can move or rename a wiki page. This is the preferred action since the new page keep the history of the old page.Scott Nelson 13:33, 30 January 2008 (PST)

Overall Impression

  1. I'm going to put the rest of the data in over the next few weeks. I don't think I will use the sidebar template as I shrunk the topos to a size that was just readable. The template shrinks the topos to a size that is just a little too small. One can click on the topo and get the larger image, but that seems like a pain. It is easy enough to browse by using the back button to get back to the original page. The format as it stands allows all information to be viewed without scrolling. It also allows one to read the route and look at the map at the same time which I find useful.
  2. I think I will put the guide section into the Trip ideas section under something like "trips by map". I want it to be separate from the others because the format will be consistent and most of the areas will have some data attributed to them. Links can be made for trips by type, etc.
  3. There is a large amount of overlap between blank pages. i.e Russet lake hut (blank page) and singing pass.
Regarding the sidebar - I do agree that it makes the topos too small. However, I think it's still good to have some sort of unifying element for the ski guide so if you randomly browse to a page you know that you are looking at the ski guide. Maybe some sort of standard header with links back to the main ski guide page and also links to other ski guide pages like "Using this guide", etc. I'll try adding one to the Garibaldi Neve traverse page to see how it looks. Also, IMO the link from the trip ideas page should simply be called "VOC Ski Guide]]. Overlap with blank pages is not problem since we can redirect the blank page to the new one. Scott Nelson 07:36, 31 January 2008 (PST)
I took another look at the sidebar and modified it to use the full size for the topos. Let me know if you like it. I put it into use on the Omer lakes page. I like it more than the header. Scott Nelson 08:53, 31 January 2008 (PST)

General comments

  1. I think it would be useful to have an unmodified guidebook (i.e. as is) on the wiki, so that it is clear to everyone that this is an pre-90s publication. Once ready, it seems easy to copy each page to an updated guidebook (but keeping the unmodified guidbook page intact for future reference). Right now it is unclear weather a page is a 25+yr old document, or a recently updated wikipage...
  2. I don't think you're officially allowed to put copies of government maps on the website, you can link to the relevant ftp site though...

--Bramvs 13:57, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Personally I don't see the value in a unmodified guidebook, since many of the access descriptions, etc would be out of date. Yes it's interesting from a historical perspective but that's not really what the wiki is good at. I think it might be confusing if we had both a historical but out of date article and a new updated one for the same area on the wiki. Scott Nelson 14:48, 11 February 2008 (PST)
Mmmh, maybe. Think it would at least be useful to mention at the top of each page whether/not the content is the unmodified guidebook from the 90s, or has been updated. --Bramvs 15:13, 11 February 2008 (PST)
I agree. Right now there isn't even any sort of indication that the description is out of date. I've added a standardized "Out of Data" warning header to all the non-updated entries. Scott Nelson 15:19, 11 February 2008 (PST)

The same list a gazillion times

It seems we have the same list of skiing pages re-created manually in a load of different places - twice for the map, once for the sidebar, etc. I wonder if there's a better way of doing this, e.g. via a category, so the list can be auto-generated. This would make it much easier to add new pages to the guide, but would need some cunning wiki-guru skillz. Just a thought. --Matthew 13:16, 22 February 2008 (PST)

template:ski guide links
Yes, I saw that, but that list isn't being used for the side bar, or the actual code that generates the map on the main page. Maybe it doesn't really matter. --Matthew 14:20, 22 February 2008 (PST)

Letters vs Numbers

Currently the ski guide has 24 map locations, which leaves only 2 letters of the alphabet for new destinations. Clearly there should be a Phelix Creek entry, which would only leave one more letter to split between great trips such as Cerise Creek, Marriot Basin, Mt Tszil, Caspar Creek, Blanca Lakes/Exodus, Ashlu-Elaho divide, Mt Jimmy Jimmy, etc. Then there's all the possibilities for trips in Chilliwack, Manning Park and the Coquihalla. Sproatt could also use it's own map identifier since the map pointer is clearly aimed at the summit of Rainbow Mountain. Perhaps we could switch to numbers instead? Scott Nelson 07:55, 25 February 2008 (PST)

Just tried it using preview. Doesn't work with numbers. Also doesn't work with double-letters (eg AA, AB, etc). So maybe we've got a bit of a problem... So it's either the Mediawiki Google Maps plugin that doesn't handle it, or more likely the default markers from Google Maps API don't handle it. Google Maps API allows custom markers (eg: your own .png) but this would be a lot more work obviously. Note that we can probably easily have more than 26 markers, but we'd have to use the generic (black dot) marker so the markers wouldn't be differentiable until someone clicked on them. PS: I removed the stuff from the links inside google maps. It's not needed, you can use regular wiki links. Hopefully I didn't make any errors while translating the links. Chris Michalak 08:21, 25 February 2008 (PST)
That's unfortunate. Lower case letters don't seem to work either. Perhaps we just need to collapse some existing trips together into the same map reference. I.e. Diamond Head + Alice Ridge, Microwave Road + Black Tusk Meadows, no separate letter for powder cap or pemberton icefield traverses, Phelix + McGillivray Pass. I also fixed a couple of link translation errors. Scott Nelson 08:55, 25 February 2008 (PST)
Ok, fixed it. Turns out the MediaWiki Google Maps plugin was generating javascript code that pointed the webrowser to retrieve icons such as I hacked the Google Maps Plugin to instead look for them here (after leaching all of the google icons into that directory). Then I found someone who had generated the icons for 1..69 (don't ask me why they stopped at 69) and leached those as well. It seems to work fine. So we can use A..Z and 1..69. Chris Michalak 12:24, 25 February 2008 (PST)